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Ep. 41: Using Emotional Targeting to Optimize Conversion Rates

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Welcome back to Master the Marketplace

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with Kaspien.

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Hello,

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everyone, and welcome to another episode
of Master the Marketplace with Kaspien.

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I'm very excited to bring you today
another special guest on the episode,

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the founder and CEO, a conversion
rate optimization expert and founder

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and CEO of Get Uplift,

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Talia Wolf. Talia,
thank you for being on the show today.

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Thank you for having me.

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I'm excited to be here.

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Now I'm not going to be doing justice
to your introduction.

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High level.

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I know you're an expert in this field,
but why don't you just tell our viewers,

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our listeners, a little bit about yourself,
your background and what do you do at

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Get uplift?

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Yeah, sure.

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So I've been in the conversion
optimization space,

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I'd say,
for over a decade now, which is alarming.

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And basically what I do is

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I help businesses all over

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different types of industries,
whether if it's B2C or B2B, e-Commerce,

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SaaS, to optimize their websites
and their funnels

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to get more conversions
and sales and leads.

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And I do it using a methodology
that I developed over

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a decade ago called the emotional
targeting methodology.

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And we can get into that, I guess, soon.

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But I teach my methodology to, on stages

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and in different courses and programs
and really

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do that around the world.

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That's awesome.

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And so, Talia,
just before we get into emotional

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targeting, I'd love to, you know,
really deep dive on that a little bit.

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Tell us a little bit about, you know,
what got you excited about conversion

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rate optimization?

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Like, why did you choose this field?

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You've been in the space for a while,
but what got you excited?

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What got you started?

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Yeah.

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You know, it's funny
because back when I started,

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there were like, there wasn't an industry.

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There were like two companies
maybe doing conversion optimization.

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Most of my sales pitches were about like
why you even need to like invest

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in conversion optimization versus
like sending more traffic to your website.

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So it's cool to see how mature

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the industry is getting.

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But for sure, when I started out,
I, when I started my career in marketing,

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it was in driving traffic and social media

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and just really kind of more concerned

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with likes and engagement
and driving traffic to websites.

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And I find, I found myself

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asking, OK, but what are the results
that I'm getting? Like,

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how much of an impact am I actually,

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do I have on my clients' websites,

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their leads, their sales?

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And I didn't really know because back then
a lot of people were

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using Google Analytics,
and even if they were,

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they weren't really like didn't know
how to connect them with social media.

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So what I would do
is essentially just like, make things up.

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So I would test things in like Facebook
ads and change like images

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or headlines or in the landing page,
because back then it was like FBML.

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Like,
I think that's what it was called. Like,

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you could like change things
within Facebook

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and work on the landing page or whatever.

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So I'd sit with the designer, and like, move
this here and let's change this button.

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It was just making things up.

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But I actually started seeing some changes,
and that was interesting.

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And that's what got me like
diving into the whole world.

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And I eventually opened my own agency
and built our own framework

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for optimization and so on.

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So it kind of started with just like,
“So how am I doing?” kind of question.

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That's awesome, that's great.

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And today,

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would you say that the field has matured
a lot just over the years

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and there are tons of different
agencies and,

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out there and like,
what's your view of this space today?

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It's a good question.

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It's a lot more mature, so everyone knows
what conversion optimization is.

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But I'd say that

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there aren't a lot of agencies
offering conversion optimization.

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There's different types of specialists.

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There's a lot of marketing agencies
that say they do zero.

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So they add it as part of what they do

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because they know
it's important to say they do it.

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But I think that right now,
the market is really kind of

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saturated with a lot of people
that have a lot of good ideas

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but not a lot of experience.

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So I have quite a few

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really good friends and colleagues
that do conversion optimization. And,

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you know, we share a
lot of knowledge together, and it's great

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to see that there's more interest
in conversion optimization.

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There's a lot more people
asking about it, asking for it,

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but there's a long way to go

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to get to a good place within conversion

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optimization
because it's such a harder discipline.

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It's not like PPC or SEO
or even design or copy.

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In order to actually be a conversion
optimizer, you have to know

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all of what I just said.

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Like you have to know
PPC and SEO and design and psychology and

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and copy and UX and like, there's so much

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that it's not as, as... I'm not saying
that PPC is easy, but it's not the same.

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It's not as tactical,
and it's a little different.

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So the market's there.

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It's interested.

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It's a lot better,
but there's still so much to learn.

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Right.

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And Talia, maybe to step back
slightly,

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you know, just for our audience,
that might be newer to this space.

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You know, how would you define conversion
optimization just in your own

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simple words for some newer folks
who are listening?

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Yeah, for sure.

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So essentially, conversion
optimization is the art and science

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of optimizing your website

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or your landing page or your funnel
in order to turn more

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of your existing traffic
into customers or leads.

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So if, for example,
you're driving 1000 people a day

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to your e-commerce website,
and every day ten people converge,

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you would be able to do conversion
optimization.

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You would be able to optimize your website
in order

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to turn those ten people into 20
or 30 or 100.

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That would be your goal.

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So you're not actually optimizing traffic,
you're not touching anything to do

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with the Facebook ads, the Instagram, the
the display ads or search.

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You're really just working
on optimizing the website itself

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or the landing page itself or the funnel
itself, the copy, the visuals, the flow,

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the content, and all of that
in order to drive more conversions

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and turn more of that,
more of those visitors into customers.

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I see. That makes complete sense.

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So let's get a little bit into,
you know, emotional targeting

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and the approach
that you and your firm have been using.

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You know, maybe define for us
the emotional targeting approach

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and then would love to also get into,

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you know, the kind of results
that you've seen with your clients

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that you have served
with this particular approach relative to

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maybe others out there.

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But yeah, let's get into that
a little more.

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Yeah, for sure. I'm happy to.

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So when I started with conversion
optimization, one of the first things

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that I did is basically change
different elements on the page.

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There wasn't a lot of content out there,
there wasn't a lot of information.

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And in order to optimize my client's
landing

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pages, I would basically change
different elements on the page.

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So a call to action button color, a

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headline, an image...

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really kind of specific,
very tactical things,

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and I never actually got the results
that I wanted.

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So maybe it would increase conversions
a little.

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Maybe it would kind of move the needle,
but not enough.

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And what we found, my partners
and I, is that there was a piece missing.

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Now, as I mentioned back then,
there were like,

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I could count on one hand
how many people were doing conversion

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optimization in the world.

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So a lot of our work was really just
building the foundations of everything.

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And what happened is,
we went back to the drawing board

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and asked ourselves, OK,
what impacts conversions? And ultimately

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what impacts conversions is decisions,
the decisions that people make.

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So in order to help people decide
and make better decisions and choose

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my client's product, I need to understand
how they make decisions.

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I need to understand their psychology
and their brain.

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And essentially what we did
is we devoured psychology books,

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and we really researched the whole process
of how our brain and our hearts

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and how we people make decisions in life
about anything.

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And what we uncovered
was something that a lot of psychologists

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and neuroscientists knew for dozens
and dozens of years, which is emotion,

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affects every single decision
that we make in life.

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Whether if it's a business decision,
a personal decision,

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there's always emotion involved,
and it is the biggest

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part of our decision making process.

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And funnily enough, the offline world,
when you think about advertising on

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television and on radio, they've always known
that. They've always used emotion,

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but it was impossible
to actually track any of that.

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And here we are on the online world
where you have Google Analytics

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and tracking, and people are just saying
like, these are all features.

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This is our pricing.

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Buy, buy, buy now.

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Here's you know, here's the sale.

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No one was using emotion.

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No one was actually connecting
to customers

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and speaking their language
and really understanding who they are.

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Because the online world is so focused
on age, geographical

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location, gender, your browser,
the device that you're using.

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We have detached ourselves
from people. And emotional targeting

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methodology is the process
that we built internally

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in order to uncover people's
emotions, their intent, the real reason

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they're on your website right now

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and trying to convert
and trying to purchase something

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and understanding their pains,
their challenges, the desired outcomes

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and the emotions that are essentially
guiding them through the purchase.

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And we uncovered

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that when we understood this,
when we knew exactly what their pains

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were, what their challenges were,
and what their desired outcomes were,

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we knew exactly what content
needed to be on the page.

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We knew what we needed to say
to people in order to convert them.

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We knew what they needed to feel
and see and read in order

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to convert them into customers
and keep them because we were actually

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speaking to their minds and their hearts.

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And you were asking about results.

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But the moment we switched to
this framework was just when we saw

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ten times conversions for our clients
and ten times in retention.

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It was just overwhelming.

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And what's amazing
is that, you know, I did this

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ten years ago, and we're still doing it.
And this is why companies come to us.

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They understand that changing elements
on the page can only take you so far.

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If you really want to run
meaningful conversion optimization

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and really move
the needle and make changes that matter,

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you have to understand
your customers better.

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You have to get into their hearts
and their minds and understand

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the emotions that guide them
in order to increase your conversions.

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And so, how do you, how do you do that, Talia?

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How do you get into the minds
and the hearts of customers?

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I mean,
just to double click on the approach.

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So a client signs you up
or you are working with them, like,

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how do you get the data
around their customer?

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How do you understand the customer?

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Can you walk us through a little bit of that?

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Of course. So essentially,

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when it comes to optimizing your website,
it's very, very simple

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to go into Google Analytics and uncover
where the problem is.

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So, you know your home page isn't converting.
Your product page isn't working.

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There's something in check out
that isn't working.

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Or if you're a SaaS business,
then you know that something, you know,

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there's a big drop off on your features
page or on your pricing page.

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But knowing what changes to make

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is the biggest challenge
with conversional optimization.

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So what we do with any client
that we have... The first thing

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we'll actually do is very in-depth,
meaningful customer research.

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That means that we would do surveys

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on your customers. We survey
your visitors, your prospects on the site,

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to understand their pains and challenges,
right now, why they're on your website,

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and survey your customers to understand
why they came to your website

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and what the value was that they found.

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We also interview customers
and actually speak to them

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to understand them
and the words that they're using.

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We do competitor analysis.

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We do review
mining, social listening, and really,

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what we're looking for
is the conversations, the reviews,

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and the mentions of the emotional outcome,
the value

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that people get from these products
that you're selling.

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Of course, we pair this with data driven,

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with data driven insights, meaning
we look at Google Analytics,

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we look at heatmaps, we do a UX
and heuristic analysis on the website.

241
00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:05,680
So we have all the data of what's
not working and why it's not working.

242
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But once we've done
all the customer research and we now

243
00:14:09,040 --> 00:14:12,200
know, OK,
this is why people came to the website.

244
00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:14,960
These are the things they've tried
before that haven't worked.

245
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This is what they're hoping to achieve
once they buy from you.

246
00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:22,960
It's so much easier for us to say, OK,
I know what's wrong.

247
00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:24,960
The messaging is off here.

248
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This is what's missing.

249
00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:28,640
The hierarchy of the content
isn't working.

250
00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:31,880
We need to shift things around
and rearrange things, or we need to add

251
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more pages.

252
00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:34,880
We need to change the menu
and the navigation.

253
00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:38,960
We need to create a new email sequence
and so on and so on.

254
00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:42,160
So this really does dictate

255
00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:46,120
everything that we do using just, by

256
00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:50,320
basically just speaking to customers
and asking them the right questions.

257
00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:53,880
No, that makes sense.

258
00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:56,760
And then once you have that data,

259
00:14:57,120 --> 00:14:59,360
you...do you build out a,

260
00:15:00,480 --> 00:15:05,120
like a hypothesis that, you know,
this is what we should potentially try out

261
00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:06,640
and then do some AB testing?
Like what's

262
00:15:06,640 --> 00:15:10,480
the process of coming to a solution
that might make sense?

263
00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:14,400
Yes. So the way it works
is we inform ourselves by saying, OK,

264
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we have a very big issue on our home page,
and this is something that happens to

265
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a lot of e-commerce brands,
like they have a lot of products, or

266
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maybe one of our clients
is based on biofeedback.

267
00:15:25,600 --> 00:15:29,280
It's a wearable device
that is, there's different types

268
00:15:29,280 --> 00:15:33,080
of wearable devices
you can use to help yourself.

269
00:15:33,360 --> 00:15:38,560
And essentially, what happens is your home
page becomes like a dump for everything,

270
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and you don't know how to guide people
and where to guide them to.

271
00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:46,920
So what we do is after actually
doing all this customer research

272
00:15:46,920 --> 00:15:51,480
and identifying, OK, the home
page is a big thing for customers.

273
00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:56,280
We then say, we then say, OK,
our hypotheses is, in this case,

274
00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:57,200
for our clients,

275
00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:00,480
we said, OK,
our hypothesis is we need to explain

276
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the science behind this product,
and we need to understand why

277
00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:09,280
this is so important for your life,
and we build a story around it.

278
00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:13,840
So we write the whole home page from
scratch, and we'll do a wire frame from it.

279
00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:15,920
And we'll say this is our hypothesis.

280
00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:19,120
Our hypothesis
is that if we mention X, Y and Z,

281
00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:23,200
and if we tell the story in this way,
and if we use images in this way,

282
00:16:23,480 --> 00:16:27,160
then we will increase conversions,
and we build the whole test out

283
00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:31,080
the whole variation, and then we'll
test it out and see how it works.

284
00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:34,960
And we'll do the same with product pages
and with the check out and so on.

285
00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:38,840
So it's essentially,
this whole research helps identify

286
00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:40,400
your unique selling proposition.

287
00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:44,600
It helps identify who your personas are
and the actual people you're selling to,

288
00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:49,160
and then it helps you optimize everything
on the website, every single page.

289
00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:51,640
That makes sense.

290
00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:55,160
And would you, how would,
what would you recommend rather to

291
00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:59,240
say companies wanting to try this approach our
or wanting to get into

292
00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:00,640
the emotional marketing approach?

293
00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:02,640
Would you recommend that
they start with,

294
00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:06,400
you know, maybe some customer surveys,
learning a little more about the customer,

295
00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:10,000
one of the techniques that you mentioned...?
How would a company maybe listening to us

296
00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:14,040
today, go back to their team and say,
Hey, we've got to go try this approach out?

297
00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:15,880
Yeah, 100%.

298
00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:19,240
I think that the best way to approach
it is to start with customer research.

299
00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:23,400
And what you want to remind yourself
and your team is that you're not going out

300
00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:24,720
there to ask them, like,

301
00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:28,080
what is your favorite feature?
Or what is the favorite product?

302
00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:30,240
Or Why did you come to our website today?

303
00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:32,560
Or what do you think of our website
design?

304
00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:34,400
That's not what we're asking.

305
00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:38,400
We really want to understand the emotion
behind the purchase.

306
00:17:38,600 --> 00:17:41,280
So even asking something as simple as...

307
00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:44,760
Let's say you reach out to your customers,
and you say,

308
00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:48,960
if you could no longer use our product,
what is the one thing you'd miss the most?

309
00:17:49,280 --> 00:17:51,760
Like, that's
one of my favorite questions of asking.

310
00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:56,560
And it gives you so much information
because they're not going to mention

311
00:17:56,560 --> 00:17:57,200
features.

312
00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:00,600
They're not going to mention
something specific to do with the product.

313
00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:03,920
They're going to talk about the real value
that they see from it,

314
00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:08,360
how they feel about it.
Or if you were to ask them questions

315
00:18:08,360 --> 00:18:13,040
like if you were to recommend
this to your friend, what would you say?

316
00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:14,680
What words would you use?

317
00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:16,920
And that gives you not only testimonials,

318
00:18:16,920 --> 00:18:20,040
but actual words
of how people describe your product,

319
00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:25,000
how they describe your service, that
then you can use that on your website.

320
00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:28,320
So starting from scratch, understanding

321
00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:31,080
customers is always the way to go.

322
00:18:31,360 --> 00:18:35,280
And just by asking those meaningful
questions, you'll be able to come up

323
00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:38,520
with so many ideas
for optimization from the get go.

324
00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:40,320
Right.

325
00:18:40,320 --> 00:18:44,720
And if a company already has that
wealth of knowledge, they already been,

326
00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:46,560
you know... With a lot of companies
that can't really talk to

327
00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:51,600
their customers. They collect customer
data from some customer initiatives

328
00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:55,320
and maybe to their sales team
and customer service teams, et cetera.

329
00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:57,040
And they've got all that data.

330
00:18:57,040 --> 00:18:59,920
What would you recommend
that they go and try out next?

331
00:18:59,920 --> 00:19:01,200
You know, what's the first step

332
00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:04,800
to go and try out the approaches
that you're probably talking about?

333
00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:08,320
Yeah, I say, I think after you do
your customer research,

334
00:19:08,560 --> 00:19:12,640
the point of the, for you is to understand,
OK, what are the top pains

335
00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:13,520
that I'm addressing?

336
00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:18,920
What are the top desired outcomes,
and what am I actually trying to say?

337
00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:23,040
The point is to go to your website
and audit it and ask yourself,

338
00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:24,800
Am I speaking about myself?

339
00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:26,440
Am I just speaking about features?

340
00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,720
And I just talking about the
the pricing of the sale?

341
00:19:30,040 --> 00:19:33,760
Am I really just focusing on myself
versus the customer?

342
00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:37,880
Because ultimately the customer
is the hero of the story and not you.

343
00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:41,440
So you have to make sure with all
the knowledge that you've collected

344
00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:44,880
that everything on your website
is making it about them.

345
00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:49,080
For example, with my customer,
my client that I was mentioning before,

346
00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:54,160
a lot of the copy they were using was
the number one device to do X, Y and Z.

347
00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:56,680
This is the most, you know, award winning.

348
00:19:56,920 --> 00:20:00,480
We don't need to say that.
The client doesn't care about that

349
00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:03,520
unless they go to the about section
where they're trying to learn more.

350
00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:06,040
What they want to know is, OK,
what is the result?

351
00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,280
What am I going
to get by using this device?

352
00:20:09,520 --> 00:20:13,280
And it's the difference between saying
like 80% off versus

353
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,360
you will never have
this type of pain again.

354
00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:20,040
You'll be able to sit in front
of your computer for hours and do X.

355
00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:25,040
The whole idea of just really
communicating the value to your customers.

356
00:20:25,360 --> 00:20:27,400
So the next step
would be auditing. Auditing

357
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:29,440
your funnels and your

358
00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:32,160
emails and your website
and asking yourself,

359
00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:36,080
Am I making it about myself
or am I making it about the customer ?

360
00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:38,200
Can people see themselves on the page?

361
00:20:38,200 --> 00:20:41,960
Can they see the real value on the page,
the emotional gain,

362
00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:44,880
the emotional outcome
that they're going to get?

363
00:20:45,280 --> 00:20:47,680
And or are you making it about yourself?

364
00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:49,840
And if you can see that

365
00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:52,840
you're making it about yourself,
which is what most companies are doing,

366
00:20:53,760 --> 00:20:56,560
then that's when you want to say, OK,
I have hypothesis.

367
00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:01,400
I'm going to change my header
of the homepage, and I'm going to introduce

368
00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:06,240
a very customer focused headline,
a call to action, a visual

369
00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:10,880
that enhances
what I'm trying to say in my messaging.

370
00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:12,560
And let's see what happens.

371
00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:14,920
So you want to go about it
in step by step and

372
00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:17,440
you can try this out in
different ways and test it.

373
00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:20,520
And so let's talk
a little bit about the testing, right?

374
00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:22,640
Because you know what...

375
00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:26,120
There's obviously a feedback loop
that you're expecting from the changes

376
00:21:26,120 --> 00:21:27,600
that you are trying out.

377
00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,360
And you know, and you want to
maybe look at the data

378
00:21:30,360 --> 00:21:33,240
and say, Well, did my conversion improve
or not? Like what would you do talk...

379
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:35,960
How would you describe
the testing process?

380
00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:37,640
What should we be looking for?

381
00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,960
Is it just a,
you know, that my conversions on that page

382
00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:45,400
improve or not and just use
that compared to some benchmark or...?

383
00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:47,680
How do you think about the data
that we should be looking at?

384
00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:48,680
Yeah.

385
00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:51,840
So generally, like generally,
if you're testing,

386
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:55,720
you want to be using a test,
an AB testing tool, right?

387
00:21:55,800 --> 00:22:01,040
So that would be something like,
just as an example, Google Optimize, VWO,

388
00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:03,040
Optimizely.

389
00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:07,440
There's so many right now,
but any of those are great and fantastic.

390
00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:10,520
And the way it works of conversion
optimization

391
00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:14,520
and why it's so powerful
is that you're testing things live.

392
00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:17,440
Meaning it's
not that you're looking at your home page

393
00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:18,000
now and saying,

394
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:21,920
OK, my home page doesn't work. I'm going
to switch it out for something else.

395
00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:24,960
You're essentially going live
with two home pages.

396
00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,320
And 50% of your traffic
will see your homepage,

397
00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:32,200
and 50% of your traffic will see
the new variation you just created.

398
00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:36,040
And you will see in real time in real life

399
00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:39,200
how many conversions each one is getting.

400
00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:43,080
So if you're an e-commerce site
and you're trying to drive home sales,

401
00:22:43,320 --> 00:22:46,760
you go into, for example, Google Optimize,
and you look at your test

402
00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:51,040
and you see, OK,
this variation had 10,000 visits.

403
00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:53,320
This variation had 10,000 visits.

404
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:55,840
This had 150 sales.

405
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:57,840
This one had 250.

406
00:22:58,000 --> 00:22:59,360
And you can see it.

407
00:22:59,360 --> 00:23:01,280
Now you want to run this
for at least two weeks,

408
00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:04,160
and you want to make sure
that you're looking at the right KPIs.

409
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,640
But most importantly,
you need to set KPIs.

410
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:09,920
For me,
when it comes to ecommerce specifically,

411
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:13,760
I look at sales.
I look at average order value,

412
00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:18,400
and I also look at add to cart
if I'm talking about product pages.

413
00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:23,160
So sometimes we'll see that a lot more
people are adding to cart.

414
00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,160
So I can say,
Oh great, my product page is working

415
00:23:26,160 --> 00:23:29,080
a lot better, but there's something wrong
with the checkout flow now.

416
00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:33,520
Or if I'm checking a home, if I'm testing
a home page, a lot more people

417
00:23:33,680 --> 00:23:37,160
are navigating to the direct product page
or to a category page.

418
00:23:37,480 --> 00:23:39,840
Fantastic. My home page is doing a good work.

419
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:41,400
Now, let's move to the next one.

420
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:45,000
So it really is about understanding
what it is that you're

421
00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:48,840
trying to achieve
and what you're testing on each page.

422
00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:52,160
And it really depends. Like for SaaS,

423
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:53,680
it's going to be something
completely different.

424
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:56,400
You're going to be looking at LTV.
You're going to be looking at free trials.

425
00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,200
You're going to be looking
at leads and demo requests.

426
00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:02,960
So it really depends on what it is
that you are testing.

427
00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:06,240
But within e-commerce,
I'm always looking at sales, add to cart,

428
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:09,160
and AOB, average order value audit.

429
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:11,680
Got it. And then have you seen all...

430
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:14,400
What is your read
on the current tools in the market?

431
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:19,280
The platforms that you mentioned around
Optimizely and others out there...

432
00:24:19,360 --> 00:24:24,520
Are they lacking functionality
that might make sense in the scenarios

433
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:27,040
that you are talking about? Or do you feel like
one is better than the other?

434
00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:29,800
What's your recommendation on this?
The toolset?

435
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,800
Yeah, I think it really depends on
where you are as a business.

436
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,680
I think
the tools are great for starting out.

437
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:41,320
And I think that any company, like
even big enterprises that I work with,

438
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,360
I preferred for them to work
with an existing tool.

439
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:47,840
A lot of companies,
when they get to a certain maturity,

440
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:51,160
they start developing their own AB
testing tools, and it becomes such a mess.

441
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:56,120
So when you have a tool
that already works, are there issues?

442
00:24:56,120 --> 00:24:57,560
There's always issues.

443
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:01,280
There is data tracking, you know, like
even the difference between Facebook ads

444
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:04,280
and what you're seeing in your analytics
is always going to be a discrepancy.

445
00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:08,040
So there's all sorts of things
that can be fixed and changed.

446
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:12,280
But ultimately, I think these tools
are really good for what you need right

447
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:16,160
now, especially if you're just
starting out in conversion optimization.

448
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:18,320
But again, it

449
00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:21,280
also depends on how much traffic you have
and how many conversions you have.

450
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:25,600
Not everyone can run AB tests.
For example,

451
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:30,800
if you have less than 300 sales
a month on your website.

452
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:34,720
Then you probably shouldn't
be running AB tests.

453
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:39,360
And what I mean by
that is the rule for AB tests

454
00:25:39,360 --> 00:25:44,120
is that, the minimum rule and my rule,
is that you want to run it

455
00:25:44,120 --> 00:25:49,040
for at least two weeks. Two weeks
so that you can test your page

456
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:51,960
on each day twice.

457
00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,800
So there hasn't been anything
like something happened on the news

458
00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,520
or there was like something
weird that spiked on Tuesday.

459
00:25:57,520 --> 00:25:59,880
And then you want to make sure
that it's repetitive.

460
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:05,800
And you want to have at least a hundred
to 150 conversions

461
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:09,000
per variation for it
to be statistical significant.

462
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:11,400
Now, a lot of people don't have that.

463
00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:15,720
A lot of people don't have 300 conversions
a month. And that's OK

464
00:26:15,760 --> 00:26:18,280
if you're just starting out,
and you don't have that, that's fine.

465
00:26:19,120 --> 00:26:22,000
But then I'll say,
so don't waste your time AB testing,

466
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,960
but do spend a lot more time
on the customer research I just mentioned.

467
00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:29,920
Because if you don't have 300 conversions
a month and you're just changing

468
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:34,080
your button from blue to red,
you're never going to get any results.

469
00:26:34,360 --> 00:26:38,760
But if you make systematic
strategic changes on your homepage,

470
00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:42,800
they're going to have a much bigger impact.
So you won't be able to see it live.

471
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:46,840
But OK, a month later, look at the results
and see what's happening

472
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:48,040
in Google Analytics.

473
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:49,880
It's not statistical significant.

474
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:52,520
You know, it's not like
the most statistical significant thing,

475
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,320
but it is a better way
and a better approach.

476
00:26:55,640 --> 00:26:59,440
And you know that
you're making big strides versus just like,

477
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:02,800
versus just like changing a button,
which isn't going to get you anywhere.

478
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:06,400
Yeah, hopefully that answered it.

479
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:07,920
No, absolutely. Absolutely.

480
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,920
I mean, to that point, you know,
there are companies

481
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:14,080
that have been very stagnant
in their their marketing.

482
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,240
And would you
recommend the approach around

483
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:21,720
emotional targeting that you outlined
today as a starting point for them?

484
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:24,960
And, you know, understand
your customers, make a few changes.

485
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:27,440
You have this feedback loop going again.

486
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:28,960
What's your recommendation for someone

487
00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:31,680
listening that's thinking,
My marketing is stagnant.

488
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:33,800
You know, I can't see any changes.

489
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:34,960
What should I go do right now?

490
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:37,080
What's the first one or two things
that they should go do right now?

491
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:40,480
Yeah, customer research is always
my go-to. Like I'm,

492
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:44,040
that would be my go-to
and also setting up some heat maps.

493
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:50,280
So tools like Lucky Orange and Hotjar
are great tools, and there's many more

494
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:55,560
that help you see screen recordings
and heat maps and scrolls and taps.

495
00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:59,840
And that's a great thing for understanding
how people are using your website.

496
00:28:00,320 --> 00:28:03,200
So if you're trying
to figure out what to do and you can't

497
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:07,800
come up with ideas, then yes,
customer research fast, super important.

498
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:11,040
But you can still do other things.
Like, it's not the only thing.

499
00:28:11,040 --> 00:28:16,800
Setting up a survey in Typeform
or in Hotjar takes five minutes.

500
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:20,560
And you just put it on the website
and go or email out to your customers.

501
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:26,280
So you should be able to spend two hours
a month on like researching

502
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:30,520
your customers, collecting more data,
and slowly making those changes.

503
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,000
That's great. That's great, Talia.

504
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,920
And so, do I just do... Can I, you know, wrap up,
I... One question around

505
00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:42,160
just getting your perspective on
the evolution of this, of the industry.

506
00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:46,280
And I know we talked a little bit
about this front, upfront, but you know,

507
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:50,240
what trends
are you seeing in the industry as a whole?

508
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:52,960
And I know the industry is large in this.

509
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:57,160
E-commerce is, you know, there's
so much in e-commerce,

510
00:28:57,160 --> 00:29:01,000
but let's, you know,
maybe focus on acquisition, conversion,

511
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,280
and kind of the funnel,
the marketing funnel that,

512
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,440
what trends have you seen evolving?

513
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:10,680
What's new age? What's coming in
the future that people should be aware of?

514
00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:13,160
I would love to get your expert
opinion on that.

515
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:14,360
Yeah.

516
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:17,320
So it's funny
you ask that because I think that

517
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:20,880
one of the biggest things we're seeing,
and this isn't news,

518
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:25,600
is that there's overwhelmingly
so much competition

519
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:29,240
out there. And it's not even like
direct competitors anymore.

520
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,280
It's anyone sends a notification

521
00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:35,280
to your phone, and your customer's
like out of your store in seconds.

522
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:39,840
So and ultimately,
you're competing with so much noise,

523
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:43,800
so many direct competitors, so much social
media. There's just so much going on.

524
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,320
So what I'm seeing is that the companies

525
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,920
that really focus on the customer

526
00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,400
and make a customer, build a customer
driven business,

527
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,320
those are the ones that are going to go
for the long run.

528
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:02,320
Those are the ones that are going
to be able to keep customers coming back

529
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:03,840
and to really connect with them well.

530
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:09,200
Because it's our job as marketers
to essentially grab people's attention

531
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,160
from whatever it is they're doing
and come to our website

532
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:15,160
and stay on our website
and purchase from our website.

533
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,960
So if you are doing
what everyone else is doing, if you're like,

534
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:22,640
copyying, blindly copying your competitors
because they know what they're doing,

535
00:30:23,520 --> 00:30:28,320
or if you are just trying to follow
best practices and just like doing

536
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:32,840
the same thing over and over again,
you're not really going to get anywhere.

537
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:36,520
Ultimately, what people are looking for
are, is help from you

538
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:40,600
because I myself as a consumer, I'm
also overwhelmed.

539
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,760
So I'm looking for the brands
that understand me,

540
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:48,800
that catch me, that I look on the website,
I read the headline, and I'm like, Yes,

541
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,240
that's me. OK, that's what I need.

542
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:52,920
I don't care about the sale at first.

543
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:54,560
I don't care about your features at first.

544
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:57,400
I want to just know
I'm in the right place.

545
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:00,560
So when you ask me about, OK,
what are you seeing in the future?

546
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:05,600
I think that the more personalized
you can get, the more specific and direct

547
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:10,880
you can get about who your exact customer
is, the better chances

548
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:14,600
you have to growing and scaling
and getting bigger.

549
00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:16,840
You don't have to speak to everyone.

550
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:19,000
You have to speak
to your specific customer.

551
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:23,560
And you can do this
with so many different technologies.

552
00:31:23,560 --> 00:31:27,200
And I know that everyone around us
is preaching us to be data driven

553
00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:27,640
or whatever.

554
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:31,840
But ultimately, data is data
that the people are...

555
00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,040
There's people behind the screens.
They're not cash machines.

556
00:31:35,520 --> 00:31:38,680
So we really need
to ultimately focus on them.

557
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:41,000
And I think that that is the future.

558
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:44,520
The future is going back to foundations
and focusing on people.

559
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:45,760
Yeah, I know.

560
00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:46,520
I think you're right.

561
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:50,800
I think a lot of people get excited about,
you know, new platforms

562
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:54,120
and new marketplaces
and all the different distribution

563
00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,440
channels, which I'm
I'm sure many will come up with this talk

564
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,640
about the metaverse
and a lot of that as well.

565
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:04,200
And all great, right?
Like all new opportunities available

566
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:07,160
for brands to sell their products
or distribute their products.

567
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:09,520
But I think you made a really good point,
which is you can't

568
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:13,640
forget the fundamentals of business,
which is to understand your customer.

569
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:15,840
Are you providing them
with the right value proposition?

570
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:17,920
And you know, and if you are, are you truly

571
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:20,840
targeting them with a product
that makes sense for that segment?

572
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:24,720
And those fundamentals will not change
irrespective of the distribution channel.

573
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:27,360
100%.

574
00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:28,080
Excellent. Great.

575
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:32,280
Well, Talia, it was an absolute pleasure
for our folks listening on the show.

576
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:34,880
Is there a way
that they can get in touch with you?

577
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:38,320
What's the best way that, you know, folks,
if they want to improve their,

578
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:42,200
you know, conversion optimization,
if they want to get some feedback,

579
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:46,040
some work from you done, what's
the best way that they can contact you?

580
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:50,120
Yeah, our website getuplift.co.

581
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:56,320
There is a ton of free content
in there and free guides and worksheets

582
00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:59,520
and everything you need in there
and courses you can take,

583
00:32:59,520 --> 00:33:00,800
and you can hire us there.

584
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:02,960
So it's all on that website.

585
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:04,920
Excellent. Great.

586
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,560
Well, Talia,
thank you again for being on the show.

587
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:08,880
We really appreciate your time.

588
00:33:08,880 --> 00:33:12,360
I certainly learned a bunch myself
in the show.

589
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,560
So again, folks, thanks for joining us
today on another episode

590
00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:20,000
of Master the Marketplace,
and I'm sure we will see you very soon.

591
00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,680
Thank you, Talia. Thank you for
being on the show.
Thank you.

592
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:31,200
Through conversations with experts
in online retail,

593
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:36,040
with years of marketing compliance
and inventory management experience,

594
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:40,360
we seek to empower our listeners
to master the marketplace.

595
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:43,040
Thanks for listening.

596
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:47,040
We hope to see you next time on Master
the Marketplace with Kaspien.

Conversion optimization is the process of converting more of your existing traffic into sales. Traditional doctrine contends that the best way to optimize for conversions is to focus on CTR and other similar metrics. Talia Wolf, Founder and Chief Optimizer of GetUplift, explains how this approach fails to get to the root of customer buying decisions: emotion. By focusing on customer’s emotional reasoning, Talia’s campaign results have skyrocketed. In this episode of Master the Marketplace, we pick Talia’s brain to understand how to effectively appeal to emotional reasoning.

► Learn More About GetUplift at: https://getuplift.co/

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